Da Scene

[zula]

Brian,

Sorry about starting this, but I still can't sleep and it's time to vent... (started in the see/hear ... Braxton thread). I'll know at the next show how many people I've offended... :)

Originally posted by John Doheny (Braxton thread)
Zula,
Also , I think it's important to distiguish between live (real) music and canned(artificial) music which is a poor substitute for the real thing. There is much,much more readily available canned music than ever before. But freshly picked, organic, live music has almost totally disappeared from the earth.

John,

I mostly agree, but canned music at times is preferable, to me anyways, than live. How many for eg. post-rock shows did I go to, then thought "why did I bother tainting a perfectly good memory, they sound much better on record?" But most of the time there ain't nothin' like the real, live thing!

I don't think live music has disappeared, but imho has been forced into camps. I think we're all responsible for getting things back on track.

I think, this is the perfect time to tap into people's openness to variety. People are searching for meaning, depth, spirituality maybe more than ever before -especially on the left coast ;)

Kudos to folks like Cory who've pulled off (and continue to) the unthinkable: Not just any restaurant or any club, which would be a feat in itself, but a jazz club in Vancouver! I think this is a remarkable achievement, yet considering the vast bounderies of jazz and other music, I personally would like to see more variety under one roof. There are many local players who don't get to play the Cellar.

I've only been to the Cellar on a handful of occasions. Why so few? Because, I flake out and hide in my cave, just like much of Vancouver. But more importantly, I don't feel like it's an open, inviting place (not just the Cellar, but the current state of the jazz community). Who knows maybe it's my issue? Also, I'm an East Van boy and it's a bit of a commute.

I go much more regularly to the Western Front, Sugar Refinery, 1067 Granville, Cultch and shows I present, obviously... not because all I wanna hear is more "out" music or whatever, but I feel more at home there. I've been jonesin' for some straight jazz for a long time, but I generally find the folks who're into more mainstream jazz quite smug and tunnel-visioned about music, as evidenced on this board. This is rather irritating and off putting. Please, keep an open mind folks! Don't forget that what you listen to was the "out" stuff at one point, even Dixieland. I'm sure some folks feel the same way about the venues I've mentioned. Let's hear it.

I'm almost sick of hearing myself talk about this, but even with my short history in Vancouver, I got to experience a place like the Glass Slipper. To me, the last version of the place was close to perfection. You got to hear many styles of music, in an acoustically decent, attractive space run by players themselves -whom you can usually trust ;) It was relaxed, comfortable and imo inclusive. We need more of that attitude back instead of this camp horseshit!

I was quite irritated when Ken Pickering and Coastal were being slagged here last year for bringing other genres of music into the mix and "how dare they still call it a jazz festival?"-don't wanna scratch at this old wound, but... ;) I think Ken, John, Robert and the folks at Coastal are responsible for turning on great many people to great many performers and styles of music they may not have otherwise been exposed to, including me. I may have quite different organizational and political views than they do, but as far as music goes, for the most part, I think they've done great things. I have a ton of respect for them. You can't please none of us all the time, as we all know.

As I've said before, it's a buffet. Eat what you want, leave what you don't. But you gotta check out some of the more "exotic" stuff, because you won't know what you're missing, if you don't!

Anyway, it's time to go to work. I may edit this later for more coherence. If I sound crabby, I am...2 hrs of sleep...

As Pigpen put it: "Turn on your lovelight ... and keep it on!"

[John Doheny]

I think we are mostly in agreement. We live in times when people feel a great sense of alienation, from themselves and each other. Music (live music) is a great healing force in this regard,a chance for people to come together and be a part of something greater than themselves.

I didn't say live music has disappeared, I said it has ALMOST disappeared, and I stand by that statement. I don't have any figures to hand but my own experience tells me there's a lot less live music of all kinds than there was 25 or 30 years ago. This of course was a process started by the advent of recording technology itself but greatly accelerated, I believe, by the disco phenomenon of the mid '70s. Prior to that most people viewed recorded music for what it was, a substitute for the real thing. If you went to a social function, a wedding or company party or a nightclub, and there was no band, this was considered a shoddy deal. Disco popularized the notion that it was actually cool to go see some twerp play records, something previously (and sensibly) viewed as something you could stay at home and do yourselves, and without the stiff cover charge and overpriced drinks to boot.

Wait. I just looked it up. The AFM estimates that app. 80% of live gigs of all kinds disappeared during the "disco crisis."

I couldn't agree more about the splitting of music into "camps". But this is really a marketing device. My friend Alvin Batiste says that marketing pimps have "hypnotized " us into believing these categories are real when they are not. The concept of "narrowcasting" in radio is a good example. 35 years ago, if you listened to a "rock" station, you might hear a tune by the Doors, one by Wilson Pickett,one by Brian Highland, one by the Association, and one by Cannonball Adderly ( well, the short version of "Mercy Mercy Mercy" anyway) all one after another. Nowadays these would all be viewed as seperate genres, each with their own station and marketing niche.

The hostility and clannishness of some mainstream jazz people is understandable, though regretable. We've been a bit under fire the last few years, after the palmy days of neoconservative jazz in the 80's (sometimes known as "The Wynton Era" :-) . I'm not going to join in the slagging of CJBS, they are , after all, gracious enough to favor me with a gig every year. But it's a matter of public record that Ken Pickering and company intend to continue keeping their major focus on the avante garde. There's nothing wrong with that. It's their jazz festival and they can run it anyway they see fit. But a lot of dumb opinions get thrown around in the debate sometimes, the stupidest one being the idea that guys like Ollie Gannon and Hugh Fraser and Cam Ryga are simply "replicating" the music of the past because they speak in a post-bop dialect. I've said this before. That is utterly ridiculous and shows either an abysmal ignorance of how jazz actually is played, or the speaker is opining without thinking. It is the exact equivalent of saying you and I say the same things when we speak as people in the 1940's did because we all speak English. It's not the language. It's what you say that's important.

And sometimes "Avante Garde" can be just a marketing ploy. Medesky , Martin and Wood" ( who I think are terrific, by the way) are sometimes promoted as "cutting edge", but really, aside from a few cosmetic touches, are speaking the same dialect as Miles 70's electric bands, or the Crusaders, or Joe Bowie's DeFunkt. But marketers push this stuff as new to attract younger audiences who have more disposable income and who don't want to listen to anything that their parents might have listened too.


Yeah, I miss the Slipper too. Big time.

There's a drummer in New Orleans named John Vidacovitch. He plays in an all-star band called Astral Project and they're a whole thread in themselves, or ought to be. But he also plays around town in all kinds of contexts, jazz, funk, inside, outside, R&B. He told me that what he liked about growing up in New Orleans was the lack of categorization. He said something like," My friends would phone me up and say,' John, we're gonna come by at eleven and pick you up, and we're gonna go play some MUSIC.' And I wouldn't have to ask who with or what kind, cause I knew it was gonna be great. I'd just say,' I'll be waitin on the porch with my drums.'"

[Morgan Childs]

John Vidacovich would have a unique perspective on this issue, being from New Orleans. He would have grown up exposed to the great traditions of his instrument in the very birthplace of it. That is unique to say the least. His playing, as with the best of players in the jazz tradition, encompasses vocabulary that comes from ALL era's of his instrument and all eras of the music he performs on it. This is where I take slight issue with John, as, when I hear Ollie, Campbell, Ross Taggart or any of the other fine "straight ahead" (I'm really starting to hate that phrase-- so limiting, in the face of music that is so vast and all encompassing-- more on that later) players this city has to offer, I hear a reference to traditions that go far beyond the "post-bop" vocabulary. This is what makes jazz simeultaneously a tradition and a continuum. It is the reason I can hear shades of Roy Eldridge and Louis Armstrong when modern trumpeters like Brad Turner or Kevin Elaschuk play on a blues. I'm really not that much of a neo-conservatist, but I do believe that playing jazz that is recognizable as such, requires a heartfelt dedication to assimilating and respecting the traditions of the music. The traditions that go back to long before be-bop. I am thrilled that our jazz festival is what it is. It is unique. It encompasses many, many different types of music. It is successful. It manages to straddle the line between having commercially successful shows that will make money for the festival, and presenting creative music that exists on the artists' terms. That being said, I am drawn to music that resonates inside me, and being a young artists forming my own concept of how my instrument should be played... I am drawn to people who play music like I would one day like to be able to play it. That is why I will go out of my way to see Nasheet Waits and Brian Blade this year. I have been there in those moments where improvisers reach a level of communication unlike anything I've ever seen before... and that can be a powerful and moving experience unlike any other. An experience that has certainly influenced my ideas about communication and music. But sometimes I find that music very, very difficult to listen to, as I can not immediatly connect to something inside my point of reference for what I would one day like to SOUND like (sometimes I end up thinking to myself "if I could only communicate like THAT, but SOUND like THIS other thing here"). This is my opinion, my perorgative and my experience. Weeds' programming reflects his desire to present the artists he feels most need a space to perform their music. He also must reconcile this with the fact that a jazz club needs to make money in order for there to even BE a space. I don't think this is cliquey at all.... in fact, I don't notice any clique's at all (my youth showing? or just a reality of the vancouver scene that everyone is pretty nice to each other and basically respects the artistic vision of their fellow musicians?). I mean, I respect that venues like 1067 have a commitment to exploring improvisation and other ways of making music either inside or outside of the "jazz" tradition. So is it so hard to respect that the Cellar has a commitment to presenting music that is concerned with exploring music more or less inside this tradition? One of the most profound musical experiences of my entire life took place inside the cellar... it was watching Gary Bartz play a blues with Mike Allen and his trio. This was surely music without boundaries, even though each player played with reference and respect to a musical form that is over 100 years old. That's tradition. That's history. That shit is deep. Far be it from me to comment on one type of music being deeper than another... that's not my point of view. My point is that all music that is made by musicians with total commitment, intent and honesty will trancend it's form, or any preconcieved notions the audience may have about what they are going to hear. But not all music is appropriate for all venues, and that's just not going to change. But as far as musicians are concerned... I think we all just want more places to play ANY kind of music, because it's good for us and it's good for the scene as a whole.

[John Doheny]

Morgan my good friend. It has been too, too long since we crossed lances on the field of cyber-debate. I hope you liked Banff. One of the biggest regrets I have about the years I wasted in the disease of addiction is that it prevented me from taking advantage of the kind of mentorship you have no doubt been enjoying there.

I don't think we're in even slight disagreement here. I was guilty of a slight case of oversimplification on the issue of jazz vocabulary and tradition, mostly in the interest of getting back to what I'm SUPPOSED to be doing here at the computer, which this morning involved e-mails to and from Tulane Grad school in, you guessed it, New Orleans. I recieved my student ID number and some other paperwork yesterday, which is starting to make it all seem real to me.


Back to your point about jazz vocab. Absolutely, yes, the music that speaks most to my heart, in ANY genre, is that which is a thoughtfull and organic EXTENSION of existing traditions. CJBS often looks toward the european avante garde in these areas, and that music, great as it may be, simply doesn't do much for me. Much as I hate to quote Wynton Marsalis, since he seems to inspire such hostility in some quarters these days, but he said a terrific thing about jazz and the blues, something to the effect that blues is like roux in a gumbo. If you don't have roux, it ain't gumbo. It's a soup. It may be a great soup, but it still ain't gumbo.

Opinions about what is or isn't jazz are by their very nature subjective, and I find the argument boring in any case. But to me, many of the Europeans at jazzfest are making soup. And sometimes it's GREAT SOUP man! Really. The fact that *I* personally don't see it as jazz doesn't mean a thing. It is often fascinating music.The debate sometimes seems to be less about jazz-not-jazz than about cool-not-cool. People think it's nerdy to dig European art music or various hybrids of 20th century improvisational musics so they wanna call it jazz so they can be cool . That's silly. I did my undergraduate degree at UBC, man. I played all kinds of weird shit. Serial music. Outside 20th century saxophone stuff. Things that sound remarkably like some of the things Francoise Houle is doing now. It's not that I haven't checked these things out. I just don't dig them the way I dig the straight ahead stuff.

I think Charlie Parker once said something to the effect that this kind of debate didn't do any of us any good, and that the important thing is for our efforts to be accepted as music. I feel most comfortable in areas growing out of the African-American tradition in the music. I try to keep an open mind, but faced with a choice between Torsten Muller and Nicholas Payton, I'm probably gonna go with Big Nick (and Adonis Rose on drums). I'm not some narrow minded guy who sits around listening to the same five Coltrane records over and over. I like lots of different kinds of music. I just don't happen to care for the European Avante Garde.

If I may belabor the literary analogy a bit more, William Faulkner wrote some great stuff in English,as did A.S. Byatt. But nobody accuses Byatt of writing "cookie cutter retro-Faulkner". To me the Europeans seem like William Burroughs with his cut-up methods, or the Deconstructionists. Those guys all have their fans, and that's just fine. But I like to read novels.

[reddiva]

I contemplated not posting on this topic, but what the hell...

Some interesting points were brought up regarding the MUSIC, which is, I know, the point, but I'd like to address something else, something that got pricked by a comment or two you made, Zula...

First of all, obviously, I'm biased - I work at the Cellar, so I have a tendency to think we rock and that we do everything right, so there... But I'll let that go for the moment and speak to the business aspect behind a club like the Cellar, and like The Sugar Refinery, and other places that are supporting live music to the degree that we do.

When you think of The Cellar, when anyone does, they get an image in their head -- they think traditional jazz, be-bop-whatever, mainstream, yada yada.... Some think Pecan Chicken, pints of Trad and just "jazz". That's the image of the Cellar, and all are fairly accurate. We wouldn't change it for the world, for one simple reason. It's working. It's known in marketing circles as essence branding. Our regular clientele knows exactly what to expect when they walk through the doors. Why would we alter that? Because avant-garde jazz doesn't have enought venues? Pish and fiddle. They play at the clubs that are KNOWN to host that type of music. We host the kind of music that we do. The Sugar Refinery has it's groove, as does 1067, and hopefully, any club that's out there has some established rep.

Suggesting that there be one venue for all types of music is a great Walton's-family-Christmas kind of idea - but I'll wager you this -- you'll only support that club on the nights that they play you're kind of music, won't you? The weeks that they don't book what you want to hear, you won't go. And who would blame you? I certainly don't pay good money to hear something I don't want to, either. And from a strictly fiscal standpoint, an all-in-one club is a high-risk club to run, in the restaurant business. It may work for night clubs, but not a club where cover is 10 bucks, and there's a minimum food charge. Those customers representing that demographic get to know what they want and when you mess with that, you risk losing your business.

(And for the record, the Cellar is expanding our genre to include electronica/urban jazz or what is being called "future jazz", as well as a monthly Improv comedy night. Mondays are the Future Jazz nights (subtitled - how the Cellar got it's groove back - I love that) and June 18 is the launch of the comedy series.)

Thanks,
Chris

[Allan Johnston]

<And for the record, the Cellar is expanding our genre to include electronica/urban jazz or what is being called "future jazz", as well as a monthly Improv comedy night.>


Let me know if you guys ever get around to booking the 'new' Latin Jazz now and then. Check out guys like Miguel Zenon...that's the 'future jazz' I'm interested in. That other 'future jazz' is great, but some of it reminds me too much of my past!

[zula]

Originally posted by Morgan Childs

I think we all just want more places to play ANY kind of music, because it's good for us and it's good for the scene as a whole.

BINGO!!!

[zula]

Originally posted by reddiva
Suggesting that there be one venue for all types of music is a great Walton's-family-Christmas kind of idea - but I'll wager you this -- you'll only support that club on the nights that they play you're kind of music, won't you? The weeks that they don't book what you want to hear, you won't go.

Chris/reddiva,

Did you read right through my post or maybe I didn't make myself clear?

You seem to think I'm just some rabid avant-freak with an agenda to turn every club into presenting only "out" music. Well, I may be a lover of more "free" stuff, but I actively listen to all types of music and I just wanna see some real solidarity among similar people.

As I said: I've only been to the Cellar on a handful of occasions. Why so few? Because, I flake out and hide in my cave, just like much of Vancouver. But more importantly, I don't feel like it's an open, inviting place (not just the Cellar, but the current state of the jazz community).....I've been jonesin' for some straight jazz for a long time, but I generally find the folks who're into more mainstream jazz quite smug and tunnel-visioned about music, as evidenced on this board.

The issue is not what I listen to. It is how it's not a fantasy to focus on and nurture community.

I got to experience a place like the Glass Slipper. To me, the last version of the place was close to perfection. You got to hear many styles of music, in an acoustically decent, attractive space run by players themselves -whom you can usually trust. It was relaxed, comfortable and imo inclusive. We need more of that attitude back instead of this camp horseshit!

To complete this thought, I went to hear/see all sorts of stuff at the Slipper, including: bluegrass, folk/world musics, poetry, post-bop, neo-bop, latin-jazz, improv/avant-garde/creative music, classical... This place was no Walton's-family-Christmas fantasy, far from it. It felt free and loose and vibrant. What do you suppose is the difference between then and now?

When I suggest that the Cellar have more variety, I believe this also applies to 1067 and other venues. It just never occurred to me that those other places limit themselves to one type of music, because they don't.

I'm inclined to think the marketing stuff ("essence branding") you talked about is inaccurate. This is not NYC where you have the luxury of millions to draw from (granted, or the competition). You talk about not wanting to lose regulars. Do they come every night? When I used to check on this board regularly, I used to hear complaints from Cory and others that it was difficult to get an audience on certain nights.

It only makes sense to shake thing up a bit by bringing in other types of music on certain nights, at least. If your regulars know what's happening on, say dub Tuesdays or whatever, they have a choice to come or not, this new genre of music will hopefully draw a new crowd out to the joint and maybe those folks will also come back to check out some jazz or whatever. So, I'm glad you folks are gonna try some new things, which will hopefully help.

Anyway, it's not my place to tell anyone what to do. The way I look at it, things will either improve at the existing venues and within the jazz community, stay stale or I'm gonna have to get off my ass and do it myself or might have to move to Montreal or some other place less stuffy, I guess...

I just wanna live in a city where musical bounderies are irrelavant, there's a sense of community among folks into all kinds of creative music that moves, invigorates, is made with integrity. Thanks for listening to this bitter boy's perma-gripe!

[reddiva]

Hey Cem - I did read the whole post thoroughly... I intended for my response to be more about giving another perspective on the discussion rather than for it to turn into a "tunnel-visioned" rant. Apologies...
;)

[zula]

Hello All,

I was hoping we could get a bit of a discussion going on this topic. I'm not particularly interested in discussing virtues of various styles of music or one-upmanship.

I'm obviously of the opinion that, were people able to catch all sorts of styles of music at all sorts of venues, our scene would be healthier. Varying audience types would frequent different venues. Some folks would eventually start checking out stuff they're not usually into at the venue that they frequent. Then maybe choose to check out that very band or a variation thereof at a venue they don't usually frequent.

Of couse, there are various potential problems. For eg. the avant crowd is notorious for just sippin' on water or sucking on pretzels all night, therefore club owners understandably worry about food and liquor sales. The more mainstream jazz patrons may be unlikely to visit the Sugar Refinery. 1067? Forget about it!

I genuinely feel that folks will check stuff out, if it ain't frightening. Well, some music CAN be frightening, but I think it's mostly the unfamiliarity of the situation that keeps folks away from unfamiliar places. "That's not my scene, man!" "Why not?" "That's some scary shit they're playing in there..." "Look, just go in with an open mind, try and leave all the baggage behind ("this is difficult, I don't understand it"), open your ears, turn off your fucking internal judge, soak it up! If you walk out without having gained anything from the experience, it's my treat." I've turned many a friend on to "difficult" music this way. The same could work for other styles of music. This shit is life!

MY MOTHER (56 year old, relatively conservative Turkish woman)loves some of the stuff that I bring to town!!! She loved Masada Quartet, Dave Douglas' Charms of the Night Sky, Wayne Horvitz' Acoustic Zony Mash & 4 Plus 1, String Trio of New York...
You may say "well, of course, that's some of the more 'palatable' stuff you bring". For this woman, music is definitely not a high priority in life, yet she also LOVED Ellery Eskelin, Andrea Parkins & Jim Black. The shit they do, don't swing to every ear! She dug it big time! And trust me, she wasn't being nice. We're brutally honest to one another.

I'd love to hear other opinions, observations, lashings, suggestions, whatever... re: state of the scene in Vancouver. It seems to me that we could revitalize the scene somewhat somehow.

Am I the only one feeling this way? What, where would you honestly like to see, hear? Share some fantasy situation or your positive/negative experiences here or elsewhere.

...or, hell, just vent!!! I promise, you'll feel better.
-----------------
Btw/

1067 granville street (alley entrance)
friday, June 13 2003

Set 1
Travis Baker-Bass
Joel Lower-Drums
and special guests from Seattle: Gust Burns-piano and Adam Diller-Reeds.

Set 2:
Back from a recent tour of the west coast Almost Transparent Blue featuring
Masa Anzai, Kelly Churko, and Skye Brooks.

Also, tune spinning by DJ Chris Kelly.

$5.00 and up sliding scale. (plus $1.00 annual membership at the door)

All proceeds will go towards paying the bill for a blown engine that
happened during ATB's tour . Come down and lend your support!

doors at 10:00 music at 10:30


walls by elizabeth zavier & matt o'donnell

[Nimish]

I may be a bit cynical, I may have no idea what I am talking about, however, I disagree with this.

I'm obviously of the opinion that, were people able to catch all sorts of styles of music at all sorts of venues, our scene would be healthier.
(how do you get those quotes where it sais who said what?)

I also agree with everything reddiva said in her inital post.


I want to know where you can go to hear live music on a regular basis with a students budget to hang out and not worry about talking a little to loud. I do not want to see a fish being thrown at a piano and be told its art. I want some groovy bass lines, fresh solos, unique improv ... Where are the groove niteclubs?

I also dislike the idea that soandso killed live jazz. Jazz music is getting old. Old things go out of style. There are people as Morgan mentioned (quite nicely) who are able to play jazz new and fresh, however, the reality is still there. I wonder if the evolution of live music is similar to that of the auto industry? It started with lots of employees doing the work, it ends with lots of employees watching and servicing machines that do the work.

This next bit is off topic
I just watched marketplace, venture or one of those shows and was told that me, generation 'x' is old. Now marketers are after genetation 'y'. Generation 'y' doesn't like big marketing campaigns or big brand names, they like independant brands and logos slapped on there favorite skater or snowboarder.
How about that. I am 18 and for a breif moment I felt old.

time for bed.

[John Doheny]

Dear Nimish,

Do yourself a favor and never, ever listen to a single word that any of those marketing pimps have to say. They are only trying to pick your pockets. Don't fall for it.

Old: I've said this here before. I find it deeply disturbing that the word "old" is used as a kind of default pejorative in our culture. Think long and hard before you do this Nimish, because as you point out, you are already old yourself, at least in the eyes of the demographic hustlers.

Out of Style: Clothes go "out of style". Great art never does. I went to the Orpheum last night to see the Vancouver Symphony perform a program of Gershwin Classics with Benoit Boutet, Jacklyn Short and Musica Intima. The place was packed. Of course many of the patrons were old, "out of style", and therefore of zero interest to the marketing pimps.

Mozart is old. Really good wine is old. Picasso, though he was once excruciatingly hip and trendy, is now old.

Budget: If live music is really important to you, you'll find a way to hear some. I've seen people who spend 60 or 70 dollars a month renting videos balk at an $8 cover at the Cellar. Cory bends over backward with all kinds of student discounts to accomodate folks like you.

Talking A Little Too Loud: Personally I don't mind a little buzz of conversation going on when I'm playing at the Cellar,unless we're doing a ballad. Especially if I overhear snatches of talk like "Doheny's sound on tenor makes me go all wet" or "That man is a master of altered dominants." But we tend to be kind of a boisterous band anyway.Somebody like ,say, Alita Dupray, who often works without a drummer, would probably prefer you keep it buttoned up when she's singing. But really, this is just good manners and it's a drag that Cellar management even has to mention it. If you just want to hang out and chat with your friends there's plenty of places you can do that.

So and So Killed Live Jazz: Well I'm a jazz musician, so I have a vested interest in the continued health of the music. But I think that live music AS A WHOLE, in all it's forms, is in serious danger of disappearing from the earth, in large part because of the enormous, all-encompassing marketing monster that spoonfeeds us pre-recorded music at every turn. Even Cem complained in a previous post about rock bands who don't "sound like the record." Well I think that's great. Records are (or were,before they became a producers medium) merely a snapshot of a particular point in time. I couldn't possibly duplicate my CD in performance, even if I wanted to (and why the hell would I want too) because jazz (and all live music ,to some extent) happens "in the moment". That the beauty of it, and that's why fake, canned music can never give the same kind of sense of communing with this shared ,human experience.

I actually meant to post here in response to Cem, who seemed to be fishing for ideas to improve the live music scene here in town, and now I'm out of time and have to go teach. I'll get back later.

www.Johndoheny.com

[zula]

Hey Nimish,

Originally posted by Nimish
(how do you get those quotes where it sais who said what?)


Instead of hitting 'post reply', you hit 'quote' at the bottom right corner of the person's post to which you wanna reply. The whole post appears as a quote and you delete what you don't wanna quote, making sure your reply appears past their quote. I think it can only be done for the first one, then cut and paste other quotes normally.

I want to know where you can go to hear live music on a regular basis with a students budget to hang out and not worry about talking a little to loud.

The places I've mentioned before 1067 Granville, Sugar Refinery, Western Front etc. all have great music, as well as the Cellar. Except for the Sugar Refinery, I think you're outa luck on the combo of cheap and loose. I guess certain musics demand more attention and the audience are sticklers for being able to hear the music only. Studio 16, for example, used to have a bar at the back, which was great for some types of rock 'em sock 'em type music, as you could mill around in the back and socialize or sit up front to focus more on the music if you wanted to. Now it's more of a black box / 'brains in a jar' kinda thing, which is great for stuff that demands more attention or is quieter, but sucks if you wanna hang w/ friends and listen at the same time. You gotta go outside the room to socialize and the live music is piped outside, which kinda works. It's tough to have both. I guess, if it were a large enough venue, you could make certain alterations to a place to try and accomodate both.

I do not want to see a fish being thrown at a piano and be told its art. I want some groovy bass lines, fresh solos, unique improv ... Where are the groove niteclubs?

Aah, 'the fish in the piano' routine, haven't seen that in a while.:D
At the places I've mentioned, you'll see "groovy bass lines, fresh solos, unique improv", but you probably don't wanna write-off all improv/experimental music in one fell swoop, i don't think. If you're after more structure and less bleeps and squawks, some of the Euro style of improv may not be for you, then try American players like Ken Vandermark. Also, many improvisers wear many hats. They play in so many different situations. I tend to lean more towards the Americans, too, but I find most Europeans fascinating, as John Doheny put it, watching them make "great soup" (or 'great souffle' may be more apt ...). I'm not quite sure I know what you mean by groove nightclubs? Do you mean places where you can catch, literally, more groove oriented stuff like Sex Mob, Medeski, Martin & Wood, T.J. Kirk, John Scofield, etc..?

I also dislike the idea that soandso killed live jazz. Jazz music is getting old. Old things go out of style. There are people as Morgan mentioned (quite nicely) who are able to play jazz new and fresh, however, the reality is still there.

I dislike that idea, too. I don't think it's possible to kill music. As long as someone is making music or digging it, it's alive. It's just so much better if it's a communal vibe and people make it a regular part of their lives.

[zula]

Hey John,

I meant to reply to your previous posts too, but I'm a slow-poke on the keyboard and had to postpone til I had time. Unfortunately, much of this reply is not directly topic related.

Originally posted by John Doheny
I couldn't agree more about the splitting of music into "camps". But this is really a marketing device. My friend Alvin Batiste says that marketing pimps have "hypnotized " us into believing these categories are real when they are not.

It may be a marketing device on a more macro level, but people are not blank slates. Especially locally, we should all know by now that eg. Brad Turner or Dylan van der Schyff can rock the house no matter what they're playing.

Even Cem complained in a previous post about rock bands who don't "sound like the record." Well I think that's great. Records are (or were,before they became a producers medium) merely a snapshot of a particular point in time. I couldn't possibly duplicate my CD in performance, even if I wanted to (and why the hell would I want too) because jazz (and all live music ,to some extent) happens "in the moment". That the beauty of it, and that's why fake, canned music can never give the same kind of sense of communing with this shared ,human experience.

I don't wanna nit-pick, but I wasn't saying that I preferred a perfect duplication of the record. What I meant was, some bands actually just sound better in studio / on record than live. Some music to me is just better enjoyed in private.

Also, I'm envious of your friend John Vidacovitch for having grown up in such a loose music scene in New Orleans. Sounds lovely, but I keep hearing mixed reports about the quality of playing there. I'll have to go and check it out for myself someday.

[John Doheny]

Hey Cem,

I think, all things considered, the QUALITY of playing in New Orleans is probably on about the same level as here, it's just that there's so many,many more places to hear music, and people actually leave the house to do that, unlike here where going outside seems to mean doing the Grouse-Grind.

Vancouver has great, great players for a city of it's size. The big problem here. as my good friend James Forrest puts it, is that they can't ALL play at O'Douls (Hey Calvin! I'm talking to YOU. Any chance I'll get to play your room before I get too old to hold the horn?). New Orleans has way more places to play and supportive local audiences, as well as millions of tourists who pour in every year and aren't going to leave without hearing some music. It might not be Edward "Kidd" Jordon they wanna hear ( a New Orleans tenor player who's so outside he makes Pharoah Sanders sound like Tex Beneke) but just the fact that there's SO MANY people who come there to hear music that it has a spillover effect on the scene in general.

I think this is what you're talking about when you speak of improving the scene, is it not? The notion that more live music and more places to play is good for everyone. If so, right on Cem!

[zula]

Originally posted by John Doheny
The notion that more live music and more places to play is good for everyone.

You said it, brother! If I'd left it up to you and Morgan to say it so clearly and succinctly, I wouldn't have had to piss off so many people.:D

I hope we get to hear other perspectives, too. Do I have to pull another stunt to get more people to post here, or what...?

[Guy]

Originally posted by zula
Look, just go in with an open mind, try and leave all the baggage behind ("this is difficult, I don't understand it"), open your ears, turn off your fucking internal judge, soak it up!

What if your mind is open and you just find you hate that particular style of music? I hate the idea that only those with closed minds aren't into any given musical style. I've heard tons and tons of avant garde music over the years, and just haven't clicked with any of it. Of course, it's possible that on any given day I could find something new that I love, but one only has so much time and energy to devote, so I'll devote it to what I know I like and along the way, I'll still hear things I don't like and things that stretch my boundaries.

[zula]

Hi Guy,

Good on you that you've checked out many things over the years before deciding it wasn't for you. I know I might've sounded preachy, but, I think, unlike you, many folks just go to one show or figure they know it's gonna suck and don't give certain music a chance.

[Guy]

That's often the way people who hate jazz in general get to hate it -- they walk in on some free event at the Roundhouse during the jazz festival, and it's some really difficult European noise band. All they know is that they're at the "jazz" festival, so therefore from then on, they think that's what all jazz must be.

[zula]

Guy,

You don't mean to imply that more difficult music is the culprit for low attendence to ALL jazz events, do you? How about those young kids who go to check out some more mainstream jazz event, and figure if this is jazz, it's rather limp, and decide to write it off? Obviously, we can all benefit from more education.

[Steve]

I think a lot of people hear the title "jazz" and either expect Glenn Miller or Cecil Taylor (one extreme or the other) When you actually get them to check it out for 5 minutes, they dig it. People sometimes get scared away by what they excpet the shows to be.

[zaragemca]

I don't agree with the Disco-Music been part of the reduce level of live music,Disco is just an structure of music with more accent in the music than the lyrics,what happenned was the greed of owners which were(and still are) trying to get the same money,and paying one person(the DJ) instead of the whole band.And technologic Gears which make it easy for somebody to set himself as DJ.The situation with jazz which many peoples over see is the evolusion of the styles itself from a danceable styles which is the way it got it's foundation to a progressive sessions which is not understandable to many people at all,more less if you have two players doing solos at the sametime,and,I play all styles of jazz including Afro-Jazz,and Latin-Jazz.

[John Doheny]

Oh I wasn't stating any opinion at all about disco as a STYLE of music. I just couldn't figure out at the time (and still can't) why anyone would want to pay someone to do something they can do just as well themselves,ie. play records. And why, given a choice ,you would want to spend your hard earned dollars dancing to recorded music when there's great live music you could do that to.

[zula]

Human beings are social animals, I guess...

[John Doheny]

They sure are. But gee, don't you think dancing to Tito Puente LIVE is so much better than dancing to his records? I've done it both ways and I sure found it more of a thrill with Carlos "Patato" Valdez banging away right there than coming out of a speaker. (yes I know Tito's dead, but you know what I mean).

[Yodi]

hmmmmm...the more I read the more I realize...Perception is truly subjective. That being said, arguing is merely a game with no answer.

[Nimish]

prehaps if live music was treated like smoking. Try to hook the kids while they are young. There are many kids out there who have never seen a music concert

[zaragemca]

I think the advantage they found is been able to play differents Bands in records which you cann't do lives,they start( I do remember) with severals Bands(at least, two),then one Band and the DJ,and then,only DJ's.The reason what the owner have to pay somebody to do DJ,is that many of them have multiple business,also to have more attention to the bar,and the cashier in the entry which is where the money is.(when they could stay in the club).